Are you ready to embark on a journey of self-discovery, challenge societal norms, and work towards promoting a safer world? Join us and our special guest, Jeff Perera, a renowned speaker and writer who is a strong voice in addressing manhood and gender-based violence. Together, we cut through the noise to understand what it means to be a male ally and why it's critical to translate those words into tangible action.
Our discussion takes a deep dive into the impact of traditional masculinity on our young boys and men, and the ripple effect it has on society. We break down how societal expectations encourage boys to suppress their emotions and foster dominance, leading to potential harmful behaviors. We also discuss Kanye West and Andrew Tate in our examination of the influence of pop culture on young men.
Navigating the challenges faced by young men in today's uncertain times, we underscore the importance of building emotional muscle. We share practical tips on fostering empathy and redefining manhood. This episode is more than just a conversation; it's a call to step up, to challenge harmful narratives of masculinity, and to be a part of the change in building safer communities free from violence.
Are you ready to embark on a journey of self-discovery, challenge societal norms, and work towards promoting a safer world? Join us and our special guest, Jeff Perera, a renowned speaker and writer who is a strong voice in addressing manhood and gender-based violence. Together, we cut through the noise to understand what it means to be a male ally and why it's critical to translate those words into tangible action.
Our discussion takes a deep dive into the impact of traditional masculinity on our young boys and men, and the ripple effect it has on society. We break down how societal expectations encourage boys to suppress their emotions and foster dominance, leading to potential harmful behaviors. We also discuss Kanye West and Andrew Tate in our examination of the influence of pop culture on young men.
Navigating the challenges faced by young men in today's uncertain times, we underscore the importance of building emotional muscle. We share practical tips on fostering empathy and redefining manhood. This episode is more than just a conversation; it's a call to step up, to challenge harmful narratives of masculinity, and to be a part of the change in building safer communities free from violence.
Hello everybody and welcome to the Learn to Love podcast. You are now on the air with HWP. This podcast is presented by Halton Women's Place. We are the only women shelter in our region for women and children experiencing abuse. On air with HWP is about having conversations that educate, empower and create safe futures without violence. I'm your host, jerusia Mack, and today we're delving into some contentious waters. We're exploring the relationship between males and the issue of violence against women. I'm joined by my special guest, jeff Pereira, who is a speaker, writer and facilitator who delivers keynotes and workshops about masculinity and male allyship. He is leading the field in conversations on manhood and gender-based violence. I'm so pleased to have you join me today, jeff. Thank you for being here.
Jeff Perera:Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack:Absolutely. I've been wanting to have this conversation for a while, so really pleased that we're able to have you here today. So, like I mentioned before, our topic today is incredibly important, but it can be contentious, in my role with education and awareness. At our shelter, we often talk about the importance of men in helping to end domestic violence, so today I wanted to chat about these concepts that you will often hear about male allyship and toxic masculinity and I also wanted to get your insight on some pop culture situations that received a lot of attention. Being an ally, I feel, is a statement that is very much used in our culture, but I'm not sure if people really understand what that means. So what does it mean to be a male ally and why is that important?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, you know, I think it's such a critical conversation for us to have around allyship and I, you know the language I like to use is striving to be an ally, you know, I think it's something that you're looking to attain, a status that not necessarily that you label yourself, but more that people will label you based on your actions, the way you carry yourself, the way you handle situations, the way you look out for women and gender expansive people, whether they're in the room or not, the women you know or don't know. You know thinking of people of all genders. And, yeah, like I think you know, I think a lot about, back in the day, mothers against drunk driving, mad. They created this concept, this language, the phrase was designated driver and you think about how now that's like such a everyday language that people are very familiar with, right away, know what you're talking about, and the idea is that someone you know chose to designate themselves as someone who'd be, you know, not drinking that night. So for those who drank and go out and celebrate and, you know, use alcohol, the person would pledge to not drink and be the safe ride home and so they went to drive everyone home that night and I think about that kind of language. And you know it's based really on their actions and the responsibility and accountability they take on.
Jeff Perera:And you know, I think it's great when men want to identify as allies, but again it's, it's not so much impressive to me for a man, for example, to go up to a bunch of women and say, well, you know, I'm an ally.
Jeff Perera:I think it's impressive for a man to go up to other men you know whether it's in the locker room, at the bar, you know in the lunchroom and say that, you know, I, I support women and girls and gender diverse people, or I'm here to advocate and support them in a variety of ways. And again, not just in words but in deeds, in action and how you carry yourself. So I think it's an important conversation and it's one that you know, I get. I get that it's very intimidating for everyday guys because it feels like such a tense conversation. It feels, you know, very challenging, difficult to keep on top of the language, on top of the issues. But that's, that's where you know it's. It's if you are invested in something, you recognize the hard work that goes in it, you know into it. So I think that you know, like when we think about anything that we strive for in our lives. There's work that goes into it.
Jeff Perera:And you know, a part of that is kind of building up. I describe it, we could talk about it more. I talk about men building our emotional muscle.
Jeff Perera:And you know, when men are committed to building physical muscle, you know like they want to play rec sports on the weekend or they just want to be in better shape, better state of health. They commit to doing that work. And you know that work is like one to the gym getting a trainer. And that leads to, you know, when you you you have a good workout, there's discomfort. 48 hours later, 24 hours later, you look, you learn to look forward to that burn of building that muscle. I think for us, as men, to build our emotional muscle means, you know, learning to get as the same goes, get comfortable with the discomfort of these topics because you're invested in what the end result will be and that is, you know, a safer place to safer world for women and gender expansive people.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, and I love that analogy that you use of the designated driver and also highlighting that it's about action, because I think a lot of it can be like you know, like you said, oh, I'm an ally, okay, what does that mean? Like it's not performative, like what does it actually mean? And like your day to day life and how, like you brought up about maybe having conversations with your friends or being the person to say, hey, that's not okay or that's not cool, right?
Jerusha Mack:So yes actually about action and not just about, like this fancy full word that we use that sounds great, right? A term that we often hear as well is toxic masculinity, and I found that when you use terms like that, people can find it off putting or they automatically become defensive. It's a term that sometimes, when we're in some of our presentations, that's that comes up and automatically, like young men, they feel like they are being attacked or they think that you know someone. When they use that term, they're saying that all men are bad. So where do you think that that pushback or defensiveness comes from and how can we get around that in order to call in men and young boys into becoming allies?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, you know, I think I think that one of the challenges that we have around these issues, when it comes to gender based violence and you know, overall, just the, the women's rights and valuing women's bodies, voices, lives and experiences, I think part of the challenge is, you know, I think that there's definitely reasons for men and young men and boys to be invested in this conversation, partly because you know, obviously, as we know, patriarchy, the structures that benefit men. However, there's also struggles and hardships that we experience as men.
Jeff Perera:And you know it's not necessarily about the oppression Olympics of who has it worse, but I think it's also recognizing that you know women and gender expansive people are experiencing you know extreme oppression, a genocide or femicide. You know homophobia, transphobia, and it's very crushing throughout the world. But these are hardships also that men and young men and boys face to and they're linked. So the kind of the idea of our collective liberation is part of it. But it's also thinking about. You know that this isn't at my expense. This conversation of change, of equality, of justice, of peace of mind, body and spirit is not at my expense as a man or young men and boys. So I think for a lot of young men and boys that the challenges when it comes to this conversation up front, the feeling is you know it's, it's fight, flight or freeze, because I think part of the challenge we have today, in this era of learning about each other and each other's experiences, you can think of it as the era of surfacing.
Jeff Perera:A lot has surfaced over the past 10 to 15 years, the reality of indigenous people, black people, the reality for trans folks, etc. Etc. The me to movement times up. These movements came up and I think for men, for some of them, the initial reaction is well, well, what about me? Who has my back? I'm struggling to have problems to.
Jeff Perera:And I think that you know the recognizing that in the feminist movements, by and large, they're also invested in the well being of men. I mean, we all know that women tend to be the mothers of the men and boys and young men in their lives, right? So having to mother and take care of emotionally, nurture, be the counselor or the support system for them, etc. So I think there's that. But then it's also helping many young boys connect the dots around why these issues affect them. But it should just not just be about to their benefit but about our collective benefit. So I think that you know what we're seeing is we have an era where movements that are counter to equality and justice you want to say far right movements radicalized right wing movements. I think what they have done is they've co-opted approaches in language and they've taken terms and flipped them on their head and weaponized them. So when men and young men hear toxic masculinity. What they're hearing is I'm toxic, or that's the way it's landing for some of them, but it's to recognize that masculinity isn't toxic. If you think of it this way, it's like how we accessorize masculinity. If you think of the Barbie film and how that blew up and a lot of people want to go see it, and we think of Barbies and Kendall's, a lot of it is accessorizing the doll right, accessorizing your toy, and I think that men don't realize that the Kendall really Ken can be all these different things. It's just how you accessorize him, the things that you put on him. So, as men, our masculinity, the way we accessorize it to feel powerful, to attain status, to feel self-worth and value, is we weaponize ourselves, the accessories we put on and the ideas that strength or aggression are what are going to make us men of virtue and value and be valued. So that's the pushback right.
Jeff Perera:The pushback is what about me? And it's also the fear of facing the hard truths, because all these things have surfaced, these truths and realities around the world. What's also surfaced is our reaction to it. Either we lean in and go. What can I do? How can I help? How can I make a difference? Or we lean back and we get into fight, flight or freeze mode versus face that hard truth and I think, giving many young men and boys role models, tools, examples of how to face hard truths about ourselves, about how we impact each other's men and boys, how we impact people of other genders, women and gender expansive folks, that helps deflate the tension, that helps men exhale and relax and hear the conversation, because the truth is they're hungry to talk about this issue.
Jeff Perera:Very clearly, they're flocking to all these alpha male influences online because they want to talk about it, but they're not getting the real answers and solutions. They're getting quick fixes online and that's part of the challenge. The work that you and other folks are doing myself as well is to try to create a meeting point where they can take a step forward and hear these things and think about how it impacts them and how they can make a difference, how it impacts everybody.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, no, you have such a great way of putting things across, and in a way where it's not meant to be confrontational or where it puts people at ease, where it's about inviting people into the conversation and not where it's meant to be attacking in any way. The facts are that the majority and I know you know this the majority of violence against women is perpetrated by current or former partners or husbands. So 90 plus percent of the time, males are the perpetrators of violence against women.
Jerusha Mack:That's just statistics, that's just facts, and that could be whether it's abuse or sexual violence that holds true. So often when we share these statistics, the automatic response from some is well, you know, men get abused too, and absolutely we know that. We know that men are victims of abuse and some of them may not report. But I think you do a disservice to the issue when if you aren't getting to the root of the problem, if we just wash over everything and we aren't direct about this alarming fact that 90 percent of the time, perpetrators of violence are men. So I think, instead of being defensive, it would be great if we could all lean in and question or explore why that is so, what are your thoughts and why these statistics on abuse are so gender skewed.
Jeff Perera:Well, I think that you know. So, going back to my analogy of emotional muscle, you think of how, again, this is generally it's not the exception, there's always exceptions to the rule but generally the way we raise young girls, and maybe this also includes you know, gender expansive folks.
Jeff Perera:Maybe it's young boys who at an early age recognize that they're gay, or the people around them their parents, caregivers read them or recognize them as being gay.
Jeff Perera:So, mostly for young girls, the way we raise them is that we, you know, we give them Baby dolls, cook sets, things where they're learning to take care of others before they can even take care of themselves.
Jeff Perera:So they're developing emotional muscle, if you will, and literacy like empathy, love, compassion, nurturance. What's great is that they're given the tools of nurturance and that extends into their, you know, from their young years to bring preteens and teens and young adults and adults. So they're getting the tools to navigate relationships and then eventually romantic, sexual relationships and then adult relationships, work relationships, etc. Etc. They get more complex as they get older, but for young men and boys, we reach a certain point and it could be five years old, it could be a bit older where that emotional muscle stops being worked and it's almost like if someone snips it with a pair of scissors and it's like, you know, the moment where there's there's a impression on them or there's a moment where they realize they have to man up. You know, the classic example is like someone telling a boy to not cry. Stop acting like you know. Use whatever homophobic, sexist term you want to use there. Stop acting like a blank right.
Jeff Perera:And so what we created is this idea that being a man is tough and strong, I need to be the solution, not the problem. Anything less than that is considered soft or weak or feminine. So, as men, we devalue not just anyone that is feminine, but anything, and that includes traits like empathy, love, emotional intelligence. So that atrophy of that emotional muscle means that we enter our preteens and teens and again adulthood romantic sexual relationships, work relationships, friendships. We don't have that muscle, We've not been developing it, so we don't know how to, you know, navigate these situations. So what we do have is the one thing that we encourage each other to express, which is anger, which is frustration, that that trait or that emotion, Sorry.
Jeff Perera:So you're seeing that you know the way that young men and then men navigate situations is thinking well, I just need to be dominant in this situation, I need to be in control, I need to assert, I need to be the, the alpha male in this, this situation, or I need to just boss my way through it. You know, and that there are certain circumstances where aggressiveness will lead to success in the moment, but it leads to failure as a human being, and you know, I I even example that my parents were born in Sri Lanka and got together through an arranged marriage. They moved to England before they came here to Canada and before I was born, and my father was not able to cope with the challenges there in England and then they moved here to Canada, was not able to cope with the challenges of being an immigrant in in England where, you know, racism was very overt and he had trouble fitting in, he had an accent, et cetera, and then came to Canada and the same thing as well over, you know, 50 years ago, not to say it's easier now for immigrants to assimilate into quote, unquote, unsubmitted into Canadian culture. But part of the challenges that he faced was he didn't have the emotional muscle to navigate what he was going through. So the way he resolved it or solved it was, you know, beating up my mom.
Jeff Perera:So for him physical violence was a way to feel some kind of control. Who do I have power over? Because my idea of being a man is is being in power right.
Jeff Perera:Having my status is defined by having power over someone. So that's, you know, the, the, the, the, the line from not having, as I described, emotional muscle, emotional literacy pools and ways to cope and navigate the trials of everyday life for young men and boys is a direct line to violence, as, as a means, you know, and unfortunately that usually means power, the people we hold power over, and that usually means the women and girls and, again, gender diverse people in our lives. Right, and what we see is, you know, misogyny is the gateway drug into hate. So it's not just domestic violence, intimate personal violence that then springs board. You'll see that a lot of mass shooters, a lot of people who cause mass harm, there is an initial one of the first acts of harm is to a woman in their life, maybe their mother, maybe a partner, a wife, and that is kind of a springboard, unfortunately, into a deeper dive into hatred, and it could be hatred into, you know, white supremacy movements, male supremacy movements, and to radicalizing into other hate movements and groups.
Jeff Perera:So it's a very important issue. It's one that is hard for men to to face. There's a lot of shame around it. There's shame of things we've done or shame, shame of things that we haven't done, like look the other way or not spoke to our male friends. We know we can see are a bit controlling or in there and when they're with their partners, you know, and not knowing how to handle that because you don't have the emotional muscle to have that conversation with our boys right. So it's just, it's a spider web of how this grows and expands and kind of entangles into everyday life. So it's as men and boys. I think it's important for us to find the courage to have these hard conversations and really look in the mirror and face hard truths about ourselves.
Jerusha Mack:And when you were just talking about like from the formative years, because that's when it's all we're being fed of like our roles and who we are and like our relation to other people. And I remember in high school going to my high school teacher and telling him that the two boys that he'd put me to work with on a group project that they weren't doing anything they had decided like oh, you can do it, we'll just get a free ride off of you doing the work, kind of thing.
Jerusha Mack:So I go to tell the teacher about it and I remember to this day the teacher looks at me and he just says nonchalantly like oh you know, boys will be boys.
Jeff Perera:And that was the end of it.
Jerusha Mack:So I remember that feeling of feeling like defeated, like okay, well, what am I going to do about it? I was upset, but the teacher said boys will be boys. So I guess I'm just going to have to put up with it. So I just think now like what did? Obviously, being at a young age, it was probably like grade nine, like you're not, I'm not in that situation yet where I had learned how to be assertive and being able to, like stand in the face of authority and say, well, actually that's not okay. What do you mean? Boys will be boys. But now I think about, like well, what did that teach me and what did that teach those boys? And what did that demonstrate then and even now, where I'm sure it still happens of what we expect from boys and what I also learned about what I should be willing to put up with. And you have tackled this statement of boys will be boys and you've said, like that actually means that boys will be broken. So can you share more about what you mean by that?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, I think that when we it's not just, you know, as individuals, young men, boys and men needing to face conversations of who we are.
Jeff Perera:I think it's as a collective society recognizing that we collectively reinforce ideas of manhood and you know I describe it the phrase I like to use is harmful versus helpful ideas of manhood Because, again, it's the way we accessorize our manhood. So the harmful ideas of manhood are what we kind of are these traditions that we hand down as a society. It looks different around the world, but there's a lot of commonalities, right, and our ideas of what a man is in, say, japan or Russia or Jamaica or Brazil or China, can look different on the surface, but there's a lot of similar traits. So I think it's, you know, collectively thinking about what we're reinforcing with young men and boys. And again, that emotional muscle. Are we encouraging to help rebuild that muscle and grow it, or are we helping them and enabling them rather to just be stunted in their growth?
Jeff Perera:You know, Because I think that you know part of our role and responsibility as role models, as models of possibility to the many young boys in our lives, because I think and as people of any gender, it's not just that men, obviously it's powerful to have a man in your life as a young boy, as a young man, that it gives an example of what it looks like. Because I think, as guys, at any age, we're looking for examples of what to do and what it looks like.
Jeff Perera:You know what it looks like to be, you know, someone that's of value, and so we tend to look to harmful examples, because there's so very few real positive models in everyday life that we see in pop culture and music and the films and shows you watch, never mind in our actual everyday lives, tangible role models. So all that to say that when we kind of look at the work that's needed and rather than kind of step up and say, yeah, we need to talk about this or I need to have a conversation with this person, or we need to think about the tradition of manhood that we passed down in this school, in this workplace, in this community, in this place of worship, you know we need to rather than have those conversations, it's easier to just kind of laugh it off and go, oh, what are you going to do?
Jeff Perera:You know, it is what it is, and you know it is what it is because we allow it to be.
Jerusha Mack:Exactly.
Jeff Perera:So, you know, we can think about, you know, the boys in our lives. Are they on a trajectory? Is there a point of no return, you know? And if there is a point of no return, we want to catch them before they get to that point. And the point of no return is where they become harmful, become people that cause great harm. So, you know, when we kind of say boys will be boys, what we're saying is boys are broken and what are you going to do about it? Well, that's the question, what are you going to do about it? And that's where we especially need to do the heavy lifting, as men and young men, around this work of emotional capacity, emotional literacy, emotional agility to handle problems in our lives, where we work, live, worship, study and hang out. So no one is, you know, no one is exempt from, I think, a duty to step up in this conversation.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, and I like how you highlight that it's when it becomes harmful right, because it doesn't. Somebody doesn't suddenly turn like 30 something years old, whatever the age is, and suddenly they're perpetuating violence or they're being violent towards a woman. That's behavior that has started maybe from a simple something like an attitude and it's now perpetuated into an actual behavior. A lot of people may not recognize, but we've come across this a lot, especially within our education program, where we get teachers reaching out to us about you know, can you come in and do a presentation or do a workshop? Because they're having unhealthy behaviors and attitudes that are happening with boys even as young as grade seven. So a lot of these behaviors or attitudes are in the formative years, when you're younger. It doesn't just suddenly manifest when it's a older, older man in a relationship with a young woman, for example, or an older woman. So that's behavior that has been coming from an attitude. That's where it stems from.
Jeff Perera:Yes, absolutely, Absolutely, and I think that you know it's having the courage to reflect on what am I doing to contribute to that.
Jerusha Mack:What are?
Jeff Perera:we doing to make a difference around that?
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, yeah, and not being dismissive about it, like you said, I want to shift the conversation a little to focus on the influence of pop culture, because we've been talking a little bit about influence as well. So I want to start by briefly looking at the case study I would call it of Kanye West and Kim Kardashian. So their well publicized breakup, where she later moved on after their separation to a relationship with Pete Davidson, and Kanye's behavior was harassing to Kim and her new partner. That's how I look at it. And during that time when she was dating Pete, kanye released a music video which showed him killing Pete Davidson and you know some people laughed it off. You know, oh, it's just Kanye.
Jerusha Mack:Many of his fans even defended his behavior, and I want to read a tweet that someone posted on Twitter. So someone said I think it's ridiculous to say that this is in any way threatening to Pete. It's just another example of his hyperbolic artistic expression, which he's been doing for decades. Now it's about the end of his marriage. So what are your thoughts on that situation with? I know it's past, but on what happened there?
Jeff Perera:Well, I mean the, if people are interested. There's a video I have up online about, about Kanye West, and you know we talk about misogyny as a gateway drug into hate. I think Kanye is a great example of that. He so I'll tell you, like you know, I to kind of give it a bit of context as far as creativity and his, his, the art. I was a huge fan of Kanye's art as far as creating music, the sounds that he created, and as an artist, however, I also had issue more and more with his lyrics and the content of lyrics and more over his behavior.
Jeff Perera:and you could see in public demonstrations more and more that Kanye had a very controlling dynamic over his then wife, kim Kardashian. And I know people. You know it's very dangerous when we kind of make assumptions and kind of try to assume that we know what's going on in anyone's life, et cetera. At the same time, I think we all know and I kind of brought up earlier, a lot of us as men know that couple. We were friends with that guy who, when we see them with their partner or maybe with a woman or maybe with their wife, we were like, ooh, that's oh man, I don't, I don't like how he's treating her, I don't like the way he is towards her, like he's not like that with me. So a lot of men will vouch and say you know, he's never been, this man's never been problematic with me. But of course, because it's a different dynamic, right, if you're?
Jeff Perera:a woman working with this person or in a dating situation at the bar or whatever. You know it's a different. It's a different energy, a different experience. And so, seeing you know, yeh's ongoing, kanye's ongoing harmful treatment towards Kim, controlling it, yeah, and then again when she and him broke up and you know she tactfully carefully navigated, you know, talking about his mental health, but then things that he needed to take ownership over, as you'd see that Kanye was not handling it well and I think what we've seen is this is ongoing from the loss of his mother. I think that was very impactful for for his kind of decline in his mental health, but also his way of handling it, his way of coping again not having the emotional muscle to navigate that storm Things got worse.
Jeff Perera:This isn't. This isn't about valuing or devaluing people's based on their ability to cope. I think we all struggle from time to time, but there are some of us who have challenges around mental wellness that do need support, and I think Kanye is someone who tried to get support. But sometimes we get in our own way, you know. We block our own shot, you know, and so, seeing the way that he handled and navigated, you know the breakup and in a healthy situation, you know, breakups are hard, like any breakup is going to be hard.
Jerusha Mack:Right.
Jeff Perera:But I think ultimately, you know you want the best for that person, you want the best for yourself and, if you can work towards a place where you're at peace and you wish them well and want them to be happy.
Jeff Perera:This is the mother of his children, and not that that's why she's a value, but it's one, one dynamic. So at the very least it's like well, for the sake of my kids, I want her to be a healthy, functioning person in the world, living a good life, because that will mean a good impact on our kids, part of our dynamic as mother and father trying to navigate how we raise the kids separately. But yeah, we didn't see that and, sad to say, I think a lot of people could relate to that situation, because there are a lot of us who know of or are in situations where we're trying to navigate the dynamic of maintaining a relationship for the sake of the kids as parents who have split up or divorced, and that's that is challenging. But again is an example of what not to do for men and boys to Kanye and it's thinking about what can that look like? And you know I get the defensiveness. Men and young men, that's my girl, that's my wife, all this stuff, I understand the possessiveness of it.
Jeff Perera:Yeah, and that's the problem is like wait a minute, that is me possessing this person. Yeah, all of these things are not controlling, and etc. It's not about you know, my wife, my daughter, my, etc. These are human beings. They are their own people, like you are your own person. But, when you're not in a place, you know you're not in a well place. And again, for me that means understanding. My value as a man is not based on dominance over others, or who I possess or who I own.
Jerusha Mack:It's about having a healthy relationship with all these things, including yourself, for as informed as yeah, so two of the things that came up for me was like when you were saying earlier, like the controlling aspect, there are some things that we can kind of romanticize. I remember, again, like you said, we don't know the intricacies or the behind the scenes of their relationship and what happened, but I remember when Kim would say, like you know, when she first started dating him, like you know, he cleared out her closet and like brought in like all this stuff about what she should wear and he was very much behind the of how she should present herself and what she should wear, and she's openly said this as well.
Jerusha Mack:right, and I know you might think well, you know he's exposing her to some, you know new fashion and like designers and things like that, but just in like our regular sphere of the world and not the celebrity world, like that is something that happens in abusive relationships where it's like I don't want you to wear this. You should wear this for various reasons, right?
Jerusha Mack:And just displaying that control. I mean, somebody can say oh, there's some like designer clothes, but like when it's that controlling aspect. I feel like there is that differentiating line for sure.
Jeff Perera:Yeah, absolutely, and I think, as men, one of the things we can do is, you know, gently but with intention, to reflect on ourselves and our behavior, and it's hard sometimes to take someone to point it out. You know, you don't see it.
Jerusha Mack:Exactly.
Jeff Perera:You know. But it's like you know. I can understand that there might be certain ways that you like seeing your partner appear, the ways you like their hair or the kind of when you wear this or whatever. But recognizing what I love about this person is that they are their own person and I want to celebrate and acknowledge that and support them in being their own person, because their happiness is my happiness, etc. And I understand that you know Kanye and Kim. They are brands as much as they are people right.
Jeff Perera:Like there is their public persona and, let's be honest, like there are things they do. Like you know, Kim has a reality show. She puts her life out for people to consume as part of the product of the brand Right.
Jeff Perera:But, she's a person as well. So, if you know, Kanye is like, hey, I have this. I want to project this certain kind of image for the next upcoming album. I want to create some public kind of talk about us. Can we dress a certain way? You know there's a way to kind of navigate that, but yeah.
Jeff Perera:I think it's very clear that this is more about him wanting to as if she was attracted. He's producing as if he was a song. I want you to look like this, sound like this, be like this, put this here, put that there, you know, and.
Jeff Perera:I think it's someone as a producer who is, you know, again, we give people so much, you know, permission to be harmful because we'll say, oh, he's such an artistic, he's a visionary, etc. And I get that, that's why, creatively, he was so incredible. It is art, but that also means sometimes being stubborn headed. That means being I want it my way, and if you're producing a song, well, that's your song, you can do what you want, but that's not how you live a life, you know, like I can't produce and create and control my kids or my, my, my partner?
Jeff Perera:I mean, obviously there are men and young men that do and that's leads to a destructive path. And, unfortunately, when we see men and young men relating to Kanye, it's because they're seeing that in them, they're seeing themselves in that and they're getting defensive. But what's wrong with that? Why can't he have what he wants? It's like well, that's not, that's not called being in a relationship. That's, yeah, that's a tyranny.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, and making the video and saying, like being dismissive towards it and saying, oh, it's art. I think that's one of the things that we talk about as well, like it's not just about being in a relationship, but also when you break up. There's a healthy way to break up and it's not about terrorizing the other person and like harassing them or being harmful to them in any way. It's not about that you no longer, like you said, have ownership of them, that you know that's my girl or my guy or whatever. It is right and that goes back to with domestic violence or abuse that when women leave their relationship, that's the time that they're the most at risk of being harmed because the abuser no longer has control over them. So not saying that.
Jerusha Mack:I'm not relating this to Kim or Kanye again, I don't know the intricacies of their stuff, but you can see a lot of that harmful behavior came out when she separated and moved on with another guy. So that's not something that we want to emulate, where we think it's okay to then send a bunch of text messages or post stuff on social media that's disparaging to that person. There's a way to move on from a relationship in a healthy way as well, and it's good to call out when we're seeing non healthy ways of that in pop culture.
Jeff Perera:Yes, and part of the problem is that we don't have examples of that we need to have models of what it can look like. I think one of the challenges is that we as a society is this kind of tug of war we're having, where we're telling young men and boys to be better, do better, but there are no examples of how what that looks like.
Jeff Perera:The example it was used is when we tell men no means no. Young men and boys and men might hear okay, so what does yes look like? Do I keep pushing until I hear a no? Not understanding the concept of what that kind of flow can look like. Back and forth Consent isn't like a key that you're trying to obtain to unlock something.
Jeff Perera:You're not trying to manipulate someone giving up the key. It's like it's an ongoing relationship based on respect and trust and vulnerability and it's not me getting vulnerable in exchange for the key to unlock consent. It's vulnerable because I'm valuing that just for the sake of I value you opening up and I value being able to open up with you and creating that kind of space of trust and growth. And there are examples, I guess, of that in pop culture, but it's quote unquote. It's girly Like, it's like soft love songs or it's romantic movies that everyday guys may or may not be interested in watching. So there aren't examples in the content we consume, that in the way we perform manhood to each other as men in real life.
Jeff Perera:More importantly, where we need more examples of opening up and talking about relationships and not like, oh yeah, you know, that's the way women are. I'm not going to use the explicit language, but we all know the terms that men might say to console other men around relationships and stuff. It's like, hey, it's opening up and saying hey look, I've been there too.
Jeff Perera:Here's what I did about it. You know, I know it's tough when this happens in a relationship. Here's what I've done around it. Or here's what I'm doing around it. Or I'm having that problem too. Like, what do you think we can do, like around that? Like you know, I know that sounds some guys would be like I can't have that conversation with my male friends. Well, that's, that's part of the challenge, and I think it's saying, hey, I want to deepen our friendship.
Jeff Perera:You know, like I care about you I love you and, as a friend, I want to be able to be someone that we can talk about this stuff with. And that's the growth, right, it's not going to happen overnight. It's building that muscle, you know, or that is being invested in this. Conversations matter because you know, it's about me and it's about the people in my life that I do love and I love, and I think that's me and it's about the people in my life that I do love and care about, and not just romantic, sexual, like any kind of relationship, any kind of dynamic with family, loved ones, co workers, etc.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah. So the second example that I wanted to talk about and you kind of mentioned it earlier about alpha males and how that's been really men flock to it.
Jerusha Mack:So I wanted to chat a bit about andrutate. I didn't actually know who he was until a young man in my family mentioned his name. Oh my God, I don't know who that is. So for those of you who don't know, so he's a well known influencer on TikTok. He has a huge following and he's gained significant traction with young men, and he promotes the idea of male supremacy and female inferiority, and the premise of a lot of his content revolves around the idea that men and their behaviors, it should be aggressive and derogatory and violent, and so an example would be he openly shares his views that women are the property of men and that women bear responsibility for their attacks in rape cases. So those things seem so like outlandish and outrageous, and yet he has this large following. So what is it about him that seemingly has resonated so much with young men and boys that he's attained this large following and influence?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, no, it's such an important topic. I think that. Think about the era that we're in, especially and it was accelerated through the pandemic. Yeah, you could think of it like the stormy waters that we're living in society. It's, it's an era of uncertainty, and it was like that before the pandemic, but we just all deep dived into this deep uncertainty about the world around us.
Jeff Perera:And so in this, you know, same storm, different boats, right? So some of us are in these stormy waters and we know how to swim. Some of us don't know how to swim. Some of us are in a yacht or in a luxury, you know, like a cruise ship. Some of us are in a rickety raft that we put together, right, Emotionally, this is how we're navigating these things. So you can imagine, for a lot of young men and boys, an era of uncertainty means that we're in the water and we're struggling. We don't have the emotional muscle, we don't know how to swim. Some of us are drowning and struggling, so looking for solid ground, and when you're in the water, you're desperate like anything. What can help me and you have here, you have online figures like Andrew Tate. Tate's history is he comes from a broken home where you know, his father was a chess player, always on the road, and when he did show up he was. He had a very, you know, unwell toxic relationship with his wife.
Jerusha Mack:So they moved to.
Jeff Perera:England, like Tate and his brother and sister and mother moved to England and you know thinking about how Tate navigated that lack of a father figure. It was him becoming like I need to be the man in my own life and I need to be the alpha male To navigate this stuff. So he learned and quickly realized. You know, he was on a show in the UK called Big Brother. Big Brother is obviously very famous here in North America but in the UK it's huge, it's a juggernaut show and he was on the show was kicked off when a video surfaced of him being violent towards a woman and.
Jeff Perera:But when you saw him on the show he was a very meek, quiet. People talked over him. You know very nerdy guy but he was a mixed martial arts guy. So he was someone who's trying to find his voice, someone who's trying to find power, you know, and he discovered that. You know it's I need to turn up the volume on my performance of masculinity, so hyper masculinity of like over the top, a noxious to the point of like being a cartoon character, right.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah.
Jeff Perera:So here are these young men and boys struggling in the water, needing anything, and Andrew Dick, you know is, comes across in his like luxury yacht, right, if you will, and he tosses them life jackets. And the life jacket is. It's time for men to be men again. You need to be alpha males, you need to be in control. You're weak, you're poor. That his language right. You're broke. Ease all this stuff. You need to be like me, like learn to swim, let's go be like me.
Jeff Perera:So that kind of tough love thing. When as men we don't have the emotional muscle, we speak in a language of tough love, like aggressiveness, that that kind of fits in and he feels like a bit of a father figure role model. But the reality is, I think that young men and boys, like we, know that manhood for us, this harmful idea of manhood that we try to portray it's an act. You need to prove To other people you don't really have these things. You got to act it out. So you got to pretend and prove. So as men, we're conditioned to be actors, like to act and perform, and so I think that young men and boys know that and they recognize that and Andrew Tate that he's got the he's got game is the way that we describe it right. They're the slang of and they value that in him that they deep down know it's an act. But like me, like him, he's one of us. He was the, the meek nerdy, broken home, didn't have a good father, but he's, he's found an act and he's weaponized his masculinity and he found a trick.
Jeff Perera:And I want to do that too. I want the truth. I want to do that too. I want the quick fix, I want the quick solution. So, rather than learning how to swim and developing emotional muscle, I just quickly want this yacht and he's throwing me this life jacket. The life jacket is harmful ideas of manhood. The reality is, as as many young men and boys, we need to learn to swim and find a way to solid ground, and that's hard work. Give me the quick fix, give me the quick solution. That's holding power over women, that's Bullying other boys to feel powerful over them. You know I'm stronger than you, I have more money than you, or whatever, um and whoever I need to con or Fool or manipulate to get that power versus trying to find solid ground, you know.
Jeff Perera:And so I think, as, as I'll see for myself and other men. We need to be lighthouses that are helping young men and boys find their way out of the stormy waters and find solid ground, because the easy Fix is this kind of like these false you know, like these again fake life jackets of certainty that Tate throws them, so these young guys in stormy waters will kind of grab on to it. And he's very accessible, he's very coddling, you know. It's like it's not you, they're out to get you. His language is, you know, it's the matrix. That's how to get me, they're out to get you, you know.
Jeff Perera:Versus what a good role model should do is say this isn't your fault, that you're struggling, but what are you going to do about it? Here's what we can do. We can, you know again, um, building our emotional muscle is like getting a therapist, like a physical, like a physical trainer for your body, a therapist or a counselor for your emotional well-being. Um, you go to the gym with the boys and you spot each other physically, emotionally. We can spot each other Talking about these things and not always leaving it to the women in our lives to have to mother us and be our counselors and be our support systems.
Jeff Perera:We can do that as well, you know, and so I think those are the kind of anecdotes to the Andrew Tate's of the world. But it's it's. It's hard when life is unstable, when you're struggling, you don't have the muscle to the ability to swim and the man is fear. This, these Online spaces of hate. I think a lot of folks don't realize how vast and how deep it is, how much content there is out there that is hyper misogynist, hyper sexist and all all different, you know, all different ways of uh, men going the wrong way versus Finding a healthy, helpful way forward.
Jerusha Mack:You know, we talked about Kanye and like his music a bit, and then with Andrew Tate and his like influence, right, and when you're having these conversations as I've tried to do with, like you know, some of the young men that I know, I find that sometimes you come across when you're talking about like, you know the music lyrics and the imagery, and the music lyrics and the imagery, and then you get the counterpoint of like oh, you know, it's just art, or you know, just because, like you know, I see this it doesn't mean that I'm gonna go like, do it, like that doesn't have an effect on me.
Jerusha Mack:So it's almost like people have this apathetic approach towards like. When you talk about music, lyrics or the content or the imagery or cultural influences, like, unfortunately, andrew Tate, they see it as like benign and like non influential to their own attitudes or behaviors. Um, they're like well, that doesn't affect me, like so. So how do you when, even when you talk about video games, which we do right, and like the violence that's in video games, how do you get people to like, become more self-aware of like these things as actual influences?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, I think that's one of the the trickier pieces with the conversation is we have, we? It's an era of immediacy, right? It's like what I see in front of me is that's all that matters. Like, and again, if I want to perform to others that I have these things, I'm gonna look to people who are doing that. So a lot of young people see online the person who's like oh, I made you know, I made a million dollars before by the time I hit 20, or you know, if you're not driving a Lambo by a certain point or a failure, if you're not in your 20s, you don't have a Lambo, you're a failure and so. So what you're not seeing is that there's a lot of scams, a lot of con artistry, a lot of manipulation, and there are some young boys who don't know that, but I think many of them know that it's, this is the scam. Just like I'm trying to scam other people, I'm trying to influence other people, pretend that I'm something I'm not. So when we're coming along and we're trying to say to them you know, this language is harmful, these things Will lead you down a path, they're like yeah, whatever, I mean, like it's just, these are just jokes.
Jeff Perera:Yeah, I think the culture we have right now, too, is one that Is very much. You know, there's a phrase that's used called irony, irony poisoning, and what we're seeing is a lot of kind of like, you know, like the reaction to everything around us is that people Are in overwhelm, and I think young people are in overwhelm again. I talk about these stormy waters, right. So it's like seeing what's happening around us different conflicts, different. It feels like there's so many different battles around us not being able to trust leaders, feeling they can't trust government or trust one another.
Jeff Perera:You know, one of the ways that a lot of us are handling it is just like this it's a laugh it off, you know, and I mean that's our and we do that throughout Time is that, you know, comedy is based on tragedy and then we kind of have to cope and we laugh things off. But there's laughing to kind of say like I get it, let's find a way forward, and there's laughing things off to Pretend it's, to devalue it and to kind of, you know, say it's not real, to the point where you know and I think an example, this is another person that we didn't talk about influence or online, joe Rogan, a lot of what he's done over the years is he's kind of have seen examples of white supremacy, male supremacy, and laugh it off. See, it's not real. This is just a joke, like what are you talking about? You know? And what that does is it's avoiding the hard conversation. So the trick is is getting people to recognize here's where it starts, here's where it leads right, where jokes and language Can go down this road.
Jeff Perera:And so if you have people who are fixated on Looking at right now, the immediacy of now, and they're not thinking about Down the road, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, what legacy am I going to leave? They're not thinking about the future or the planet, they're just thinking about I just need to kind of Take care of me right now, in this moment. There is a lack of empathy. There's a huge empathy deficit. You know, yeah, there's a huge famine of trust.
Jeff Perera:So it's the challenge is for us is to build trust and to build Empathy with our audience, with the people listening Uh in, in the, in the case of talking to a group of young boys, it's getting them to be invested in caring. You know, and it starts what you have to start with. It should be enough to say I'm a woman or here's a person who is in struggle and they're, they need help, they're a human being, they have value, their life has value. It should be enough and everyone should stand up and go. I agree, what can I do? How can I help? That's not the world we live in, especially now. So the challenge is how do we Get young men and boys to invest in humanity and the humanity of others, and I think it starts with building their own humanity. Right, because part of the the trick of being a man today Is is discarding your own humanity. For these young boys that starts with jokes like everything's a joke, it doesn't matter.
Jeff Perera:Yeah, what you're doing is devaluing a group of people with transphobic, racist, homophobic jokes and you're devaluing their humanity. What you're doing is you're Devaluing your own humanity, you are dehumanizing yourself and that you don't care, you don't have empathy. You are, you know, a soulless person, is where you moment, when you might look at it. So I think that helping them recognize this conversation is about you. We are invested in you, building trust with them, helping them recognize that I'm invested in your humanity as much as the people I'm advocating for. So I'm also advocating for you Like I want.
Jeff Perera:I'm not telling you do better because you're not good enough, cause as men and young men and boys, we're conditioned that the language is that we're not enough. I'm not enough of a man, I'm not strong enough, smart enough, my body isn't tough enough, I don't have enough money, I come from a poor family, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these different things. So when we say, be a good man, do better, be better, it falls in that lens of you're not good enough, you're not enough of a man. You need to be more of a man. And they'll remedy it the wrong way by doubling down on hyper masculinity, toxic masculinity, versus investing in building their own humanity. And that has to start with us encouraging them to build and rebuild their emotional muscle, their humanity, and that is the hardest road. That's why it's so much easier Like hate movements right now are making a killing.
Jerusha Mack:You know, hate cells.
Jeff Perera:It's a simpler, easier solution. Blame someone else. It's not my problem. You know my, my the no mirrors in my house. It's all windows. I look out and I point the finger to the people. Rather than looking in the mirror and say this is about me. What can I do for it? Do differently. So all that to say like, yeah, like it's. It's such a critical conversation and it's the hard work that's ahead.
Jeff Perera:And that's that's why it's so important that you know like the work that Houghton's Women Place and folks like you are doing, it needs to be supported and we need, as a community, to invest in it, because that's where the change happens. I don't know what's like yeah, duh, we get that, but no, I think people don't really realize like that's why it's so critical. You know it's hard work.
Jerusha Mack:Yeah, I wanna. I wanna end the conversation with something that you've said. So you said it's time to draw new maps to manhood. So I want you could you share with our listeners what that means and how do they start this redrawing? Like, what's your final call to action for our listeners?
Jeff Perera:Yeah, I think that you know our ideas of manhood. We've been talking about this throughout. Yeah, it's having examples of what it can look like, models of possibility, and the reality is that there's not one way forward for men. It's a multitude right. For every man there's a different idea of what manhood is like for them, what it looks like, right. But it's finding your own map, your own way forward, and to do that is what you need is you need a compass. You need a compass right To navigate, to find your way forward, cause manhood isn't really something you, it's not a place you arrive at. You get a certificate, you know, congratulations, you're now a man.
Jeff Perera:Like we have different rights and rituals around the world, different cultures around young boys entering manhood, but the reality is, like being a man is a constant, ongoing thing throughout your life, the different stages of the life cycle. So for me, I think it's finding your way forward is about having a compass and I think that, as men, having an inner compass towards a healthier idea of manhood. Part of that is it's a four step thing. It's determining who you are, determining your values, what matters, what's important, and then two is being what you believe I need to be the person I believe that I am right, and the third part of that, then, is that you show up for the consequences of that. So if I stand up and I value women and girls, it's being that in the way I carry myself, not just what I say, but what I do and there will be consequences for that and showing up for those consequences.
Jeff Perera:And the fourth part is doing better than our yesterdays. I talked about men feeling pressured to do better, be better. Being better is not being better than everyone else. Like as manhood, it's all about competition and conquest. I gotta be the best man, the toughest guy, so it's not about being better than that guy or this guy. It's about doing better than my yesterdays, being better than the person I was yesterday, and that's the humility that will help guide us forward. And so, for me, all that comes down to is being the lesson in action.
Jeff Perera:I think a lot of us don't have the models or the examples, so we need to be that for ourselves and find that in each other. I think that's so important, and it's the hard work that will get us there, towards change, and in striving to be an ally, striving to be someone that is a helper, not a fixer. My value is not in solving or fixing the issue. I'm not here to save women and gender diverse people. I'm here to help. How can I serve, how can I be of service? Because that's strength. So, yeah, I think it's recognizing those things and how we can be better teammates really to one another in our everyday lives.
Jerusha Mack:Thank you Really. Wise words, jeff. I wanna thank you for joining us today. This was such a great conversation. I know I learned a lot, and I'm sure our listeners did as well. So thank you so much.
Jeff Perera:Thank you for having me.
Jerusha Mack:Thanks for listening. I hope today's episode inspires you to start exploring ways you can be an ally, or that it starts the journey of self-reflection where you begin to examine your influences. Maybe now you're one step closer to being able to challenge harmful attitudes or behaviors you see, or maybe even that you do. I encourage you to start a conversation today with someone, or even within yourself, on how you can foster healthier relationships in your own life and in your community. Until next time, remember change is possible. Together, we can create a more equitable and respectful world. I'll see you next time.